In which I get into more arguments about language

[sasha_feather]

I had a rather involved, mostly non-heated argument (as much as I can be non-heated in an argument) with a friend the other day about language and I'm still thinking about it so I want to write it out.

My premise is that if you are a gay man, don't say "ew" or other such words in describing your reactions to women's genitalia. At the very least, be more tactful, because it's just rude to refer to someone's body that way. (I got him to agree on this point). Furthermore, you might think it's just about your own personal reaction, but we live in a misogynistic world, and your reaction is colored by structural misogyny. My friend didn't agree with me on this point, but I still think I'm right.

I didn't say it quite so clearly in the actual argument, of course! This is one of the reasons I stopped reading Dan Savage's column: I got tired of him saying things like this, of him not getting it, not understanding the power of language. Writers in particular, you think they'd understand. But a lot of people don't make that connection between "my personal opinion" and "systemic oppression".

Then I got to thinking today about how I don't ever hear lesbians refer to men this way. I can only think of once-- in the pilot of "The L Word," when a woman says, "Ew, I can't believe I used to swallow this stuff," when referring to the semen she's using to try and get pregnant. And that's the one and only instance I can think of. In fact most of the lesbians I know read and write m/m slash fanfic, which celebrates male anatomy, and celebrates queer men. This may be due in part to our own internalized misogyny, or it may not be, but it's interesting to notice.
UPDATE I am wrong about this last part apparently!

Comments

[torachan]

I actually see a lot of "penises are gross and/or funny-looking" from women, period, even if they're into people who have penises. Even if they read and write slash.

[sasha_feather]

Hm! Now that you mention it, I've heard "funny-looking" and "weird" from people too, although I haven't actively participated in those conversations. I've also heard all kinds of bizarre things from supposedly het women who act like they don't like men's bodies or whatever.. which I just find confusing honestly. *scratches head*

[amadi]

I've heard things like "funny looking" but in a good natured way, in a context of "they're funny looking but I like them." Or the idea that all genitalia are kinda funny looking until they belong to someone you're attracted to, then they're suddenly gorgeous -- and last time I heard that it was put into the context of other parts that are funny, like ears and toe cleavage, and how when you bend your arm the right way it looks like a baby's bum. But in the circles in which I've run, the only people I've ever heard insulting genitalia outright have been cis gay men talking about vulvas. There's one particular epithet commonly used that I'd rather eat rhubarb than ever hear again, and I loathe rhubarb down to my marrow.

Maybe I run in more sex-positive/body-positive circles than the average, though.

[sasha_feather]

Yes that has been my experience too! As you say, the sex-positive and body-positive people probably watch what they say about these thing, consciously or otherwise. And it is great!

[chagrined]

I was going to comment and basically say this. I can't give any kind of summation of the sexualities of ppl I've heard it from, but I've heard "penises are gross/icky/weird/etc." from lotttttts of ppl. I think in comparison I've heard "vulvas are gross/icky/weird/etc." from ~more~ ppl, but still have heard lots of both.

[sasha_feather]

Hahah, OK, I guess I just hang out with a different crowd! Either we a)don't ever talk about penises, or b) my few friends who are into them, are really into them. :O

Hmmm!

[jesse_the_k]

Hmm looks like it's time for our bimonthly, detailed genitalia singalong :)

[sasha_feather]

Hahahha!

[holyschist]

I have also, maybe especially from straight women.

I do think there's a little bit of a difference between "genitalia are kind of funny" and "genitalia are gross and icky," though. I mean, one can shade into the other, but I think people tend to react much more badly to the latter, unless "funny" is said in the way that means "gross." "Funny" is really context-dependent, but I can't think of many contexts where someone would be okay with being told their body is disgusting (aside from consensual kink, etc.).

[sasha_feather]

I agree 100%!